Ep16 - From Burnout to Boardroom: Dan Copsey’s Journey of Building 13 Global Businesses

On this episode of The Australian Business Show, Dan Copsey joins Nick Stehr to talk about his journey into starting 10+ businesses, managing the recruitment process, advocating for the regulation of the marketing industry, what it takes to earn freedom, navigating the age of the individual, and how to become better at overcoming challenges.

With over a decade of experience in advertising and digital marketing, Dan Copsey is a visionary leader dedicated to innovation and creating meaningful impact. As the CEO and founder of multiple ventures, Dan has consistently pushed boundaries, inspired diverse audiences, and driven sustainable growth.

Dan’s journey is marked by a deep commitment to social impact, extending beyond the corporate sphere. He believes in the power of collective intelligence, collaboration, and unwavering support, echoing Isaac Newton’s reflection, “If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.” This philosophy has fuelled his achievements and inspired his continuous pursuit of excellence.

Eager to connect with professionals who share his fervour for innovation, impact, and transformation, Dan is always exploring new opportunities to redefine the contours of advertising, marketing, and social impact.

Timestamp Segments

• [01:28] Reach Outreach Program.
• [06:52] Dan’s background.
• [13:03] Making a bad hire.
• [18:19] The shady marketing industry.
• [22:50] Providing lifetime value.
• [25:37] From construction to business.
• [29:21] Earning freedom.
• [32:11] The learning mindset.
• [34:09] Where Dan finds the time.
• [37:00] Making sacrifices.
• [39:39] The age of the individual.
• [44:14] Time in the seat.

Notable Quotes

• “You’re only as good as your last job.”
• “Business is not for everybody.”
• “Business doesn’t get easier. You just get better at it.”
• “You become the sum of those that you associate with.”

Relevant Links

Dan Copsey.

dancopsey.com.

Transcript

Welcome to the Australian Business Show, the ultimate destination for entrepreneurs and business leaders who are ready to make waves in today's dynamic marketplace. Whether you're scaling a startup or leading a major enterprise, the keys to success are right here. We bring you insider access to the minds of the world's top business trailblazers, uncovering strategies, insights, and innovations that are shaping the future of commerce. Tune in, take notes, and get ready to elevate your game. Now, let's dive in.

[00:34] Nick Stehr: Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Australian Business Show. Today, we're joined by Dan Copsey, an extraordinary entrepreneur who has built an impressive 13 businesses across the globe. From the challenges of burnout to scaling international ventures, Dan shares the lessons he learned along the way. Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur, a seasoned business owner, this episode is packed with invaluable insights you won't want to miss. Let’s dive in.

Dan, welcome to the show. How are you?

[01:02] Dan Copsey: Good, Nick. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Been a long time coming. Looking forward to finally getting to speak to you.

[01:09] Nick: I know. I think we had a couple of false starts, didn't we? Maybe we won't talk about-- I think I said to you, I missed the last one because I had a bit of an accident. My ambition outweighed my ability on a bit of a hill descent on cycling. So, I'm here to tell […].

[01:25] Dan: […] from me. So, don't worry about that.

[01:26] Nick: Yeah. So, just offline before we started here, we were talking about cycling, and I read with interest, obviously, there was an article just recently in the Australian Financial Review, I think it was, wasn't it? On one of your, and I'm going to have to keep myself controlled here in timing, mate, because you've got a number of businesses, and you're involved in so much. So, feel free to wrap me up. Otherwise, I'll talk to you all day, but I read with interest, because I'm a keen cyclist, and one of your endeavours, you seem to have a hell of a lot of philanthropic blood in you, I guess, I would say. A lot of what you do seems to be about giving back to others, especially underprivileged communities, but tell us a little bit about Reach, in particular, because there's the cycling event we were talking about, both being cyclists. I quite love the challenge of it. I love the meditation of it, and I think you can relate to, and agree with, some of that.

[02:22] Dan: Reach a community-led school and outreach programme in Siem Reap, Cambodia. It was started by Emily Williamson, who's a very dear friend of mine. She and I actually met at uni. I'd come back to uni after being out in the real world for a little bit, and wanted to validate some skills, and I started a double degree, at the time. I've actually just found out I've only got 2 subjects to go. So, I'm pretty happy I'm nearly done with that after 10 years, but Emily and I were paired together in a group assignment. We just hit it off. Both very similar mindsets. Both like to have a crack and get things done, and we do things quite fast, and things like that. She was working for another charity in Cambodia, at the time, where my wife and I got involved and sponsored one of the children, but then she wasn't happy with the way the money was being spent, and there wasn't enough transparency in what was going on with that not-for-profit. So, she didn't want to be involved with it any further, and she walked away, and decided to start her own, which is where Reach came.

One of my advertising agencies has been involved with Reach from the start. We helped with some branding. We look after all the digital side of things. Emails, all the IT infrastructure, and stuff like that. We also sponsor the computer literacy programme over there. So, we've been intimately involved with the whole operation since the start, and then me, myself, personally, I've been on the Advisory Board, and I'm the Chairman of the board now, which is fantastic, because there's a whole bunch of international people coming together to fundraise and lend the corporate advisory to an organisation like that, and yeah, every year is the Ride to Reach, where we encourage people from all over the world, with all different cycling skillsets, to come and jump on a bike, and ride 650 kilometres across beautiful Cambodia, in the name of raising some money for the school, and the first year we did it, we had 30-odd riders. It was postponed due to Covid, obviously, like a lot of things, but 2022, the first time we did it, we had 30-odd riders, which is fantastic, and we raised just over $250,000, which is unbelievable. Last year, we didn't have as many riders. We were up in the low 20s last year, and still raised a fair amount of money, and again, I think at the moment, for next year, we've got about 25-odd riders lined up, ready to go. So, it's an amazing journey.

You get to experience all the bits of Cambodia that normal tourists probably wouldn't experience, especially riding along the roads, and everything, but you make some great friends. You meet the Cambodians. They’re lovely people. I don't think you'll find a nicer bunch of people in the world. They're so welcoming, and whatnot, to everyone, and they just appreciate everyone being there, and it's such a beautiful landscape to ride across. It's amazing. It's something a lot of people probably would take for granted, but until you get out there and you have to earn every pedal, as I say, to view it all, it really makes it such a worthwhile experience.

So, I think it's 18th of January. It's a 10-day tour. 8-day cycling. We have a day off in the middle in Phnom Penh, which is always fun. So, a lot of people will choose to just spend that day in the pool. After 300-odd kilometres, I'm not sure why. Some people, they'll get out and enjoy the nightlife the night before, too. A younger version of Daniel probably would have done that. The 43-year-old version of Daniel appreciates sitting by the pool all day, just to make sure the legs are in-check for the second half. So, yeah. It's just such a good event, because you meet so many great people. I've got so many friends now from these rides that I've met. They’re placed all over the world. I could probably travel to any corner of the globe, at the moment, and have someone to call on, to go and have a beer with, or have a chat with, that I've met through Reach, which is fantastic, and we've got people from The Hague, London, Germany, Australia, US, and Singapore, and everywhere. It's fantastic. So, it's a really good crew. I think there's seven or eight of us that have done it every year, so far, which is fantastic. I'm looking forward to it. I don't commit to the next one until I finish the one that I'm currently doing. So, I won't commit to 2025, and if Anne listens to this later on down the track, which I'm sure she will, but yeah, we'll go for 2026, but I'll get 25 out of the way first. Looking forward to it.

[06:49] Nick: Amazing. Well done. You made a reference there to young Daniel. You're early-40s, right?

[06:57] Dan: 43, yeah.

[06:58] Nick: Obviously, stalking through some of your LinkedIn profile, and all that stuff, it looks like there's a total of more than 10 businesses that you are invested in/own. You're an ex-police officer?

[07:10] Dan: No, no. My father was an officer. No, I'm actually a landscaper, by trade. I studied music at uni, when I went to uni, when I left school, and then I finish uni, and I never worked a day in the music industry in my life. Started landscaping with a friend, when I moved back to Melbourne, and I was in the landscaping and construction industry for a long time, working up to the bigger infrastructure projects and big civil earthworks projects all around the Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane project management, and running all those jobs. What it was, back then, I probably didn't know, but what I now know it to be, was burnout. I cooked myself, basically. I pushed a bit too hard, too fast, too far, and one day I had a premonition, as I call it, and I stopped dead in my tracks before I actually put myself over the edge, which was a big call out, at the time.

[08:07] Nick: Clearly, you learned the lesson, because now you've got 13 businesses.

[08:10] Dan: Well, yeah. There's a big difference in pushing yourself over the line for someone else, and there's pushing yourself over the line for yourself. I can control every element of our ecosystem, and it's not because it's a controlled thing, for me. It's just that I have the power to put good people around me, which I have done. Teams across the globe. There's no one anywhere in those teams that wouldn't go to bat for, at all. They're all fantastic people, and they all treat the business as their own, as well, which is a big thing. I think, that's why, when I was back working the construction, I did treat the business as my own, at all times, and I think you get too emotionally invested in it, as well, which can be a good thing. It's great for your boss, at the time. It's fantastic, but also if they don't appreciate that, as well, then that can be a problem, and then also, you're investing a lot of yourself, personally, emotionally. So, why not go out and do it on your own?

I had a couple of months off. I went and drove a forklift for a couple of months, which is, I don't want to sound degrading to anyone who drives a forklift, that was a chance to go and switch off, and just probably not use my brain too much. Although, driving a forklift is a very dangerous position, and does require some intelligence, but for me, it was like, “well, I can just go and switch off and just do this job.” It was a day job. I didn't have to take it home, or anything, with me, and stuff like that.

[09:33] Nick: Or make it happen. You come to work and there's work to be done.

[09:37] Dan: I’ve just got to go and do my job, and that's it. I could just go, and whatever else, but then after a little while, you get very bored, very quickly, and I remember speaking to Alex, who's my business partner now, who's a long-time friend of mine. He was bored in what he was doing, as well, and I'm like, “we need to go out and do something. We need to do something for ourselves,” and that's where all the agencies were born from. We went out-

[10:06] Nick: What age are you, at this stage?

[10:08] Dan: This is when I was 36. Toward the end of the construction stuff, too, we had some businesses in transport, on the side, because we were working in Earthmoving transport, machinery transport, and we had some some side stuff going on, as well, which didn't go to plan as much as we thought it would, and we lost some money there, too, but again, I think it was just trying to take on too much and juggle too much, and do all that stuff, and that contributed to everything towards the end of the day, but I like just being in business, I like doing business, and the people go, “oh, you've made this big step from construction and infrastructure, civil to advertising and marketing, and everything else you're doing.” Yeah, but it's all business, to me. I like being involved in the commercial discussions, the legal, the books, and the accounting, and everything like that, and that's my role across our businesses. I run all the commerce side of things, whereas Alex is more technical. So, he heads up our software division and software business, and then we have good people looking after all those different skillsets from advertising and marketing, and content, and graphic design, and everything like that. So, we're in the business of leveraging our people's skills. That's what we sell.

I've spent a lot of time, and Alex has, too, we've spent a lot of time putting really, really good people in, to run all those departments and businesses, and stuff like that, and the old adage of “higher for attitude and train for skill” is something that we've been big advocates of, and it's worked really well for us over the years. We have 110 staff, at the moment. Like I said before, I’d go to bat for every 110 of them. They're all fantastic people. We've got a lot of long-term staff that have been with us seven or eight years, and Steph, she was our #3 employee. She's still with us. So, I think that's a testament to the way that we've built our businesses and built the people, putting the top people in that we want, as such. So, that's what allows you to scale. That's what allows me to go and invest in other businesses, sit on boards, be involved, create other businesses, and we're across a couple of different industries at the moment. We have a couple of pubs, and we have the advertising stuff, we have the software stuff.

Like you said, I'm involved in a lot of philanthropic stuff, including our own not-for-profit, as well, and what allows me to have that bandwidth is having good people that I don't have to sit there and babysit or micromanage, or anything like that. We can trust that they’d go out and do their job well, and very rare for me to get a complaint about something or someone, or for it to come back up the chain. It's very rare for that to happen. People sometimes ask, “how did you become so successful, or what's the key to success?” And I always talk about people. Clients will work with you because of you. They'll trust you and trust the people you have around you, and then your business operates really well because of the trust that you put in people, to come and work for you. So, having those good people in the business is priceless, at the end of the day.

[13:02] Nick: I mean, I would absolutely agree with you. One of the things that I've noticed, especially since Covid, is the real challenge of, there's good people out there, for sure, and not everybody's the right fit for your business, either, but making a bad hire, and I'll just qualify that it's not that the person's bad. It's just, essentially, the wrong fit. They could be, mind you. There's those people out there, too, but making a bad hire is such an expensive process, not just financially, but in time. So, how do you manage your recruitment process now? You spoke about will over skill, hire for attitude and then you train them. Have you made bad hires?

[13:47] Dan: Yeah. We've made a couple of bad hires over the years, but I think the biggest thing is that we've learned from that, too. We got to a stage where obviously I couldn't hire every person and meet every person until right at the end. I didn't have time to do the interview process. During Covid, especially, we were putting job ads up, and we were getting 300-plus applicants. It was crazy. So, I just didn't have time to vet through that. So, I used a recruiter to do a lot of that grunt work, so to speak. I think the trick, again, I was talking to someone about this the other day, finding good external contractors, too, is a massive plus for your business. Finding a good accountant, good legal, all that stuff, and I've made mistakes, and I've had bad experiences in both of those, so far. I have a really good team now, but recruitment is another really big thing, and he's a gentleman by the name of Ben, who came and learned about our business. He spent a lot of time. He immersed himself in our business. He just really sat there, knew the staff, knew the type of people, knew what ticked our boxes, from a personality point of view, and our culture, and everyone that fit in. So, he's not going to put a square peg in a round hole. He didn't want to waste our time, either, because he knew, at the end of the day, he's just going to have to replace him for us, and whatnot, and then I wouldn't let anyone else from that recruitment company work for us, apart from Ben. That was it. He was our guy. I would not, because every time we strayed from Ben, it went wrong.

[15:17] Nick: So, he didn't own the business?

[15:18] Dan: No, he did not own the business, and he doesn't work for that business anymore, either, but he was just fantastic. I mean, I think we did 44 hires over a period of 18 months, at one point, in Melbourne. That's a lot of people, that's a lot of stuff, and I reckon out of all that, I think there's only one or two that just didn't work out. People will come and go. You can't get emotionally tied with staff. I remember my first couple of long-term staff who we'd spent a lot of time with. They worked with us. I really felt they were going to be with us forever, and then they turned around one day and said, “well, I'm going to another job or get another job,” and stuff like that, and I used to take that personally, because I was like, “we had so much time,” and whatnot, but then I just learned.

[16:01] Nick: Almost like a form of rejection on one hand, isn't it?

[16:03] Dan: A little bit. […]. Then I just learned, you’ve got to let these people go, and go and do it, and since then, I've been a big advocate for everyone who's gone off, and there's been some people who left our business that have gone on to do much bigger and better things, and whatnot, and they're all really […], and the cool thing is that everyone stays in touch. I think that's really cool. A lot of our ex-staff, they'll stay in touch. We sold an agency last year, as well, which took a lot of staff with them. I still have bets with one of the lads there. I’m a Carlton supporter, he's a Collingwood supporter. We have a bet every time the two teams play each other. Haven't won anything yet, but he's had three or four free meals off me so far, but there's that cultural camaraderie that's still going, which I think probably, at the end of the day, is probably the most special bit about it all. Getting back to the question, by the time the applicant came to sit in front of us, it was 99.9%, the deal was done, because Ben would go, “Dan, this is the person that you're looking for.”

[17:12] Nick: He’s a rare beast in the world of recruitment agents, though, because most of them are not wired that way. It's bums on seats.

[17:18] Dan: Correct. He didn't muck about. He was a hustler, but he knew, too, that if he put the wrong bum on the seat, then he's just going to have to spend time replacing it for me, too, and he just knew that as, I think, a recruiter, just as much as a marketer or an accountant, or a landscaper, you're only as good as your last job. I remember one of my old bosses told me that you're only as good as the last job. That is your reputation. The last job is someone’s going to go back and look at that, and see how good you did there, and you’re only as good as your last job. So, I don't have time to have three people not work out in a role, in the space of a month, or something like that. So, he essentially had to be efficiently part of our team and make sure that process worked, and everything like that, and he was great, and he knew what worked and what didn't work, and he'd even find out what football team they vote for, all this stuff, just so it was all there, so you knew about it. So, I didn't hire any Richmond supporters, by the way. […]. I'm only kidding.

[18:19] Nick: It's interesting to me, because I've not generally enjoyed working with recruiters. So, I don't, and there's a few that I've spoken to, and no offence, but I'm not a fan of recruiters, because the experience has been, “I'm going to jump into the line, stand here a little bit.” I've found a lot of marketing agencies the same. They promise the world, and then when it doesn't work, they say, “it's your conversion. It's your this. It's your that.” Hang on a minute. “Well, we produce these leads.” Yeah, but they’re crap leads.

[18:48] Dan: You're preaching to the choir there. We've spent a lot of time trying not to be a marketing agency. The industry is unregulated. Anyone with a laptop and an email address can become a digital marketer. The worst thing about that is that there's a lot of people on the business side of things. They know they need someone like that. They don't know what they're looking at. They're not educated, and there's so many opportunities for the wool to be pulled over people's eyes, and I've walked into multiple client meetings, where you look at SEO results and this. What were you paying for that? 4,000 a month, and things like that. So, we've worked so hard not to be one of those agencies, and you go look through our socials, and on any of the brands that we have, […] and most of those agencies […], anything like that. We don't do “we can scale your results 400,000 ROI, and this and that, and whatever, and get you 500 leads,” and all that stuff. It’s not what we do. I will always be on, myself and Alex, or Adam, my business partners, and then we will know those red flags or orange flags to look for early in that client relationship, too.

We like to be very transparent about how the process works and what's going to happen, and what the expectations should be. If someone says, “I need to get 100 leads, that's the only thing I'm going to look at,” and whatever, 9 times out of 10, it probably wouldn't work with them. It's not that we can't generate the leads. We probably can generate the leads. There's a lot going on in the peripheral just to be focused on that. I mean, there's a lot of moving parts to all of that. I agree with your sentiment around, there's hundreds of different marketing agencies out and about, and there's so many that shouldn't be there, as well, and that says a lot from a guy who came from construction. I look at it from a couple of different angles. One, I look at it from a customer service point of view. Every role I've ever had, customer service has to play a big part of it, and educating the client. So, whether I'm moving 100,000 cubic metres of dirt out of a hole in the city, or I'm delivering $100,000 a month advertising budget for someone, transparency and educating the client on what's going to happen, and what to expect, is key. “Hey, you're going to have 100 trucks lined up at your site all day long, taking dirt out. They're going to go this route. They're going to be dumping here. This is what you're paying. Blah, blah, blah. This is what to expect.” 100,000, here's the marketing. Here's the advertising schedule. This is what we're buying. This is the media. This is the imagery.”

Educate your clients. Where these marketing agencies who probably hurt the rest of us, our reputations, where they try and hide stuff, and there's lots of ways to hide things. There's a lot of guys out there charging a lot of money for SEO and don't do anything, at all. I've seen it. I've seen people who just charge, and they send a report at the end of the month, and whatnot. It’s criminal. I would be a huge advocate for an authority to come over and regulate the industry. I’d be a huge advocate for it, because I reckon it would knock out 75% of our competition, to start with, and there's a lot of guys that specialise in one thing, and whatnot, and there's a lot of guys that say they’re full-service, and all that stuff.

I think any advice out there is, I heard someone talking about it the other day. Agency credentials are a big thing. Speak to clients, speak to their current clients, testimonials, ask for references. We get asked a lot for references, and we're happy to provide them, and whatnot, and I think that's a big thing, but any industry, there's always someone out there who's trying to just make a quick buck, and there are large agencies in Australia that work on a churn rate. They build a client churn rate into their business model, which is insane. They know they're going to churn X amount of percentage of clients a month, and whatnot, and they work that into their business model. So, what does that say about how you […]?

[22:49] Nick: I mean, when we talk about lifetime value of a client in business, we talk about acquisition costs, and we talk about all those sorts of things, that, to me, is a really shortsighted view on business. It's like, “can I get them in, fleece them for this, and then move on and fleece somebody else?”

[23:05] Dan: I've got clients that are still with us from 2017/2018, when we first started. I've got one client, Matt. He runs a karate club out in Cranbourne, probably now, not our right type of client, because we're a lot bigger than we were, but we work. We started with him […]. During Covid, I rang him up, I said, “mate, Matt, we're not going to charge you to do SEO for the next couple of months,” because his clients stopped, and we were in a position where we were doing quite well, and I went and picked out probably 15/20 of our clients, where I thought, “these guys aren't going to have any money,” and I said, “instead of waiting for the phone call to come to say, ‘hey, we can't pay you anymore. We can't do work anymore,’ I went out and said, ‘hey, we can still deliver on this because we're in a fortunate enough position to be able to,” and I'll tell you what, every one of those clients, finally six months later, seven months later, when we started talking about starting invoicing them, and stuff like that, every one of them was so appreciative.

Matt […], who we spoke about earlier, he is still one of our clients today. He is a blackbelt, and God knows how many other things. He's big lad. He always says, if I ever get into trouble, just to call him. The referral business that we get out of guys like Matt is unbelievable. Matt will hear of an opportunity somewhere, and all of a sudden, I'll have a phone number on my phone, “hey, you’ve got to call this guy. I've spoken to him about blah, blah, whatever,” and just being good humans, hey. Just help people out. If you're in the position to be able to help them out, just help them out. I think that client retention, that client lifetime value, is a huge thing, no matter the size of the client. No matter the size of the client.

[24:44] Nick: I agree, totally. Our values in our business are honesty, integrity, and then people and passion, and that stems really also from my personal values, and the only other one I would add in there, with that, is authenticity. I'm so sick and tired of inauthentic rubbish that we get fed, and unfortunately, social media now is, you have to have it. That's where so much of your lead generation comes from, your marketing, your branding, all that stuff, but the reality is that it's doing so much damage to people, as well. We're comparing ourselves to something that just isn't real. You only get to see the glamour. Like Hollywood, it's all contrived and narrated. It's a challenge, but that's one of the things I think that I'm picking up on what you're saying there, is the authenticity around what you do and how you approach business. When did you figure out that “I'm going to get into business?” I mean, you were doing construction. You got into landscaping.

[25:42] Dan: Yeah. So, we were, Alex and I, always playing around with little projects on the side. We had a clothing label, back in 2012, called Level7, which we started up. It was right at the start, when eCommerce first started. So, we had a clothing brand, and we were Australian made, and we were making hats, and all cool things. We were sponsoring surfers up on the Gold Coast, down at Bells Beach, we had Brendan Fevola wearing our gear around. Justin Bieber, he caught one of our hats when he was in Melbourne. Someone left them in a hotel room for him in a box, and he got one of our hats, and Brendan Fevola, and all these guys. We did a lot. So, we had a lot of fun with that. We sold the business to a Japanese clothing brand, at the end of that, and that was cool. We did that as a start to see if we could work together, because 9 times out of 10, good friends, family, shouldn't be working together, or can't work together. Alex and I are probably the exception. We work extremely well together. We grew up together in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. There's a whole bunch of kids all in the neighbourhood, probably about 20 or 30 of us, all the brothers and sisters, and whatnot. We'd all be running around over the weekend, at each other's houses, and parties, and whatnot, and we all grew up together. Went to different schools, but the neighbourhood brought us all together, and Alex and I were good buddies. So, it was like, “cool. Well, let's try a clothing brand. Let's see if we get that up and running, if we don't kill each other by the end of that,” and whatnot, and that was fun. We got that going and had some success there, and then we did some stuff in trucking.

We bought a couple of trucks, and bits and pieces, and that didn't end so well, but I think that taught us a lot. Alex always says the education that we got during that period, you can't pay for at a university. You can't get that anywhere else, and that's probably shaped a lot of what we've done now. Coming back around to this, Alex was like, “look, I’ve got this idea about targeting SME's, digital marketing, and rolling it out that way,” and that's where we started, and honestly, Nick, it just started. Our mission, at the time, was to create enough revenue to keep Alex and I in a nice comfortable job, working for ourselves. I wanted to be able to go over to America every season and watch some basketball. We both wanted freedom, I guess, and then there's the two of us who, as opportunities come and you have means to do other things, and invest, and things that, it's organically just grown to a size now where you just pinch yourself every day, of what we've got going on.

We’ve got an office in the US. We’ve got an office in the Middle East, in Pakistan, the UK, and stuff that. Some of the people we've met along the journey have been amazing. Some of the clients we work with are amazing. We've had the opportunity to buy 2 pubs. We've had the opportunity to invest in different businesses around the world, which have been very fruitful, and someone at Cub asked me one day, I was doing a video, “what does entrepreneurship mean to you?” and I was like, “freedom.” Everything that I've got around me, house, motorbikes, friends, charities, whatever, that's all come from the work that we do. We've created everything that's in that ecosystem, and every dollar that's being generated, however it's spent, is generated because of the hard work that we've put in, not that we're putting it in here for someone else to go and do the same thing. So, I think that's why we've enjoyed it so much, and personally, that's why I really like it, is because I do have the freedom to be able to do whatever I want, whenever I want. The buck stops here. There's no one else. If it's going South, that's on us. The buck stops with us. So, I think I appreciate that, as well.

[29:21] Nick: It's funny, because I think a lot of people who want to get into business, entrepreneurship is the latest trend. It's everybody […], and on the surface, even more deeply than that, I guess, I'm okay with that. I think it's great, and I'd encourage anybody who's willing to do what it takes to have a crack. I think that's the problem, is that you've got to have resilience. You've got to be prepared. You spoke about freedom, and I would say that you've earned that, over time. I'll bet you didn't have it in the beginning, and that's the thing people don't understand. They're the […], you lose, is your freedom. You've got to work your guts out.

[29:57] Dan: I sat on paying myself the bare minimum that I could be paid out of the business, for five or six years. I was very lucky; I had a wife who had a very good position and could pretty much balance us out. We don't have any children, which is okay, but we live a very good lifestyle. It's not lavish or anything like that, but it's very comfortable, but many a night that's being lost to sitting in front of a laptop. There's many a weekend that's been lost to being on the phone or travelling, or all this stuff, and I do a lot of travelling. I do 50-odd flights a year, every year. It's ridiculous, and someone asked, on Saturday night at a wedding, “Oh, that's great.” Yeah, it's great, if you want to see the inside of an aeroplane. I think it's very sad that I can walk onto a Melbourne-to-Sydney Virgin flight now and the hostess actually knows who I am, or I know who the hostess is, and we've only met from those interactions. I think that side of it, it's great for the first couple of times. I'll tell you what. It gets pretty boring and monotonous, and laborious after that, but you're right, though. You give up so much to have that, but that's the dream.

We talk about this hustle culture. You see a lot of stuff on social media about that stuff. Lock yourself away, take away from now to give yourself that, and that is true. That is true. You can get that, but I tell you what. People won't tell you about the deep anxiety that you can get when, “shit, am I going to have enough to make payroll? This client’s got to pay this and that, and whatever, or there's a big client that owes a lot of money and they go into liquidation, or whatever.” You name it. I've had it, and you've probably had it, too. Had it all happen, and then you throw on the fact that you’ve got family involved, and bits and pieces. It would break most people. I don't want to hear any entrepreneurs say, “I've never had anxiety. I've never had this. I've never had that,” because that would be BS. I've gone and spoken to professionals about some of that stuff, too, and learned how to deal with it properly, too, because it can be crippling, and then throw in a pandemic. The first month of the pandemic, I tell you, that was not a circus. It was crazy.

[32:05] Nick: Like trying to drive a car, blindfolded.

[32:07] Dan: Oh, mate, I didn't even know where to start, at that point. It was unbelievable, but I look back on it now, and all the craziness that was happening around us, at the time, some of the lessons I was learning, at the time, I didn't realise I was learning them. It was unbelievable. I think when we talk about mindset, if you have that mindset, where you're going to take away those lessons and know when to look for the lessons, or when the lessons are happening, and stuff like that, and learn from them, that's the education. It's funny, like I said earlier, I've been studying. I went back to uni, doing a double degree in business and marketing, as always, and not that I thought I was going to learn a lot, but I wanted to validate a lot of my skills, and that's what I've been doing, and it's funny, the amount of times, and it's not aligned with Swinburne, you meet an eclectic bunch of people when you get in the profession, there’s all these young kids, and all this stuff, and the amount of time that you spend just being a mentor to a lot of people in this, which is fantastic, and it was like, “well, I'm definitely validating all my skills here, and stuff.”

The amount of stuff that I've learned over the years just from being in the trenches is unbelievable. Lots of situations get thrown at you, and I've always made myself available to those in my network. If I can add value or advice somewhere, then pick up the phone and ring me. I'm not a qualified accountant. I'm not a qualified lawyer, or anything like that, but I can tell you, from experience, what will happen, what the scenarios will be, what could happen, and then that might save you $1000 at a lawyer getting that advice. You just need the lawyer to go and execute for you now. So, I think that's one of the big things, too, is I want to make sure that I can give back, too, because the education that you get goes to waste if you don't impart the knowledge, as well.

[33:51] Nick: Look, I could attest to your availability. We haven't known each other very long yet, and I hope that this is the start of something that goes on for a long time, because there's a lot about your value set that I certainly resonate with, and that I aspire to.

[34:07] Dan: I appreciate that. Thank you.

[34:08] Nick: For somebody who owns 13-plus-odd businesses and is doing a double degree, and all the stuff that you're doing, your philanthropic work, and yet, you were so flexible in your availability for this. So, you certainly live that. I don't know how you do it. It's it's quite amazing, and we'll probably dive into that over a coffee or a beer one day, and I'd love to understand that more, but it's incredible because I think so many people- where was I sitting the other day? My wife and I were sitting there having breakfast, Saturday morning. We went out for breakfast, and we could hear a young couple on the table next to us, 2 girlfriends, and they're like, “I'm just so busy, the kids, this, and that,” and you’re trying to listen more, and go, “what does that mean?”

[34:55] Dan: Some people are “I'm just too busy.” Organisation is just key to everything that I do. Key to it. You’ve just got to be super organised. The calendar. I'm a note guy. I run notes, daily notes, and everything that. I'm a little bit probably OCD with how I manage my details and notes, and things like that, and whatever else, and how I write my emails, and everything like that, but there's the process to it all, and that's why it works. That's why I can balance what I do. I think, at the same time, not having children, obviously, gives me a lot of time. My wife is a professional, too. She's pretty high up at Puma. So, she has a fairly busy schedule at the moment. She's in Germany, at the moment, with the team over there. So, sometimes we can be a little bit like ships in the night, but at the same time, if I wanted to have children, I wouldn't be going as hard as I am, at the moment, because that's not fair to the children. You have to be organised, but being flexible, too.

Again, it just comes down to be a good human, too. If you rang me up and said, “hey, I can't do it because of this,” what's the point in losing the plot? Cool, mate. You've had an incident. We can't turn that back today. So, let's just get on with it. I think one of the things that I've learned to do over the years, too, is not to get too hung up on things. I used to get really hung up on things and write people off, and whatnot, but life’s too short for that. We'll get around to it. We'll do it now. We always say, internally, all the across the businesses, “we're not doing brain surgery,” and those that are doing brain surgery really need to concentrate on that, but we're not doing […]. No one’s doing brain surgery going, “I’ll listen to a different podcast.”

[36:42] Nick: Not focusing out there. If you're a brain surgeon and you're not focusing, can you just let us know who you are, please?

[36:50] Dan: We won’t come and see you. Yeah, that's right. Whether it's personally or professionally, or whatever it may be, you can't scale unless you've got good systems, good process, and good people around you.

[36:59] Nick: I totally agree, and I'd add to that, too, and that you're prepared to sacrifice. There's a trade-off for everything. You mentioned kids. We do have. My wife and I both work in business, and it’s 17 years now. My eldest is 29. You do the math. They were still kids, and we worked seven days a week for a long time there, and that was the sacrifice we had to make. Now, they saw that, they learn work and sacrifice from that. Opportunity in everything, and there’s sacrificing everything. What are you prepared to endure to get where you want? 

[37:33] Dan: Yeah, and you and Melissa need to be commended for what you've done. I've spoken to your wife about your lovely children before. I think it's a fantastic environment that they've been brought up in, and they come from good stock, yourself and your wife, good stock, good people, good values, everything like that, and you're not turning around bullshitting people about your values, or anything like that. You're actually living and breathing, which is part of the problem, globally, with a lot of people and scenarios, and everything is, people say one thing that they don't actually go out and do it. So, that really annoys me. You look at my parents. They were a policeman and a teacher. They weren't entrepreneurs, or anything like that, but they sacrificed a lot for the three of us boys. All went to private school. We never missed out on a thing. We had school holidays. We had whatever. We went to school camps, all that stuff, and music lessons, sporting, whatever. We never missed out on anything, but who knows? I've never actually asked them. They worked every day for a long time to have a nice house, so we could have everything. So, they probably gave up a lot, too. I've never sat them down and said, “if you didn't have the three of us, what did you want to be?” and all that stuff, but again, too, I think it's a generational thing, too, Nick.

I think it's dying out a little bit in the generations below us, and it's great to hear that people, like your children, will hopefully carry through that sentiment that you and Mel have, too, because I just see a lot of it around, and I don't want to put anyone off here listening, but some of the next generation can't even do their shoes up without something else, or whatever. I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole, but some of those good old-fashioned values just need to be kept strong, I think. So, sacrifice, all those things. I think there's a big […], and I think the world needs it, too. There's a lot of crap going on in the world at the moment, here, abroad, everywhere else. We just all need to take a breath and just probably get back down to brass tacks, honestly.

[39:37] Nick: Yeah. I had a conversation on the podcast, on the show, with another guy, and we were talking about, it’s like we're in the age of the individual, at the moment. I think that's a problem. I don't think that the human race is designed— we’re designed to be interdependent on other people. We need socialisation. We need other people, and I think this whole thing of “it's all about me, mine, and what I want, what I need, and you’re beautiful the way you are, blah, blah, blah,” and again, I'm not trying to point my finger at anything here, other than to say that I hope we move through this period pretty quickly, because what have you achieved in your life that didn’t rely on other people?

[40:18] Dan: Correct. 100%. Everything I've achieved, I didn't get here by myself. That's the thing. No matter what I've done. You play a basketball team, you don't win, you're doing that as a team. You play in a football team; you're doing that as a team. There's no individuals. I think people don't realise that you do rely on other people to get where you're going, whether you're paying them or not. You rely on everyone. So, yeah, I agree with you.

[40:41] Nick: Yeah, and I think, on that point, business is not for everybody, and if it is what you want, then I'd encourage anybody out there to go and do it, but what I'd say is to seek counsel, to get good advice, to talk to people like yourself, myself. I'm out there, available, as well, because I know how hard it is. I know what it takes, and I know what it doesn't take, but I think it's one of the greatest vehicles to be able to create a life that you've always dreamed of.

[41:15] Dan: It's amazing. It doesn't matter what business you're going to open. A car wash or a lawnmowing business, or whatever. You can create your own lifestyle, and stuff like that, but you do have to be prepared. That is great advice. Go and seek council. In the early days I had some really good mentors, and I still do have some great mentors around me, and I'd have a lot of people that I can reach out to and ask for a bit of assistance or advice, or whatnot. I'm not shy about doing that when I need it, and that's why I put myself back out there, as well, and being somewhere like Cub is fantastic, because that ecosystem encourages that, but I've been very privileged over the years to have some great businesspeople, of all different ilks, around me, but not just business people, too. People who have just gone through life can give some sage advice. That's fine, too, because that's not easy, as well.

My father, again, 42 years as a police officer. He could sit down there and tell you a whole lot of stories and give you a whole lot of advice on a whole bunch of different stuff. I've got some uncles that have done different things in their lives, and they're all fantastic, and they'll all pile off a great bit of advice here, there, and everywhere, and I mean, my grandmother's still alive. She's 101. She's got some stories to tell when she wants to. She’s seen more than all of us. They ran a farm through the droughts, and she's from regional Victoria, stuff like that. So, they can tell you what sacrifice is all about. You and I probably actually don't even know what sacrifice is, compared to someone like that. So, it's important to go and make sure that you do reach out to these people, and to have those people, but I'd do it all again if I had to. If I lost everything tomorrow, touch wood, I’d go and do it all again. Start again. I've started from scratch before. I'll go and do it again, because the euphoric bit, and you'll have different realisations over your period. I remember I was walking across, I think it was Brooklyn Bridge, I was walking across there, and it was 5:00 in the morning. I was out going for a run, and whatever else, and I'm just like “how’d you end up here, Dan? How’d you end up here?”

Another really good instance of that, too, was when, I remember standing outside the health club, a not-for-profit in Pakistan, and pinching myself a little bit there, going, “the boy from the suburbs,” and whatnot, and not to put tickets to myself, or anything like that. “Here we are, servicing people, providing for their needs, for free, paying for all of that out of the work that we're doing.” You'll have those realisation moments, and when you do have them, that's what makes entrepreneurship all worth it, but to get to that, you have to have the days when you don’t know if you're going to meet payroll. You're going to have the arguments with clients. You're going to have the clients who will tell you to go away. You're going to have the ones you don't win. You will have the ones you do win. You're going to have to pay tax. You're going to have to pay super. You're going to have to do all these different things to get there and have that realisation. You're going to have to not pay yourself, and you going to have to give up sleep and relationships, and whatever else, and time with your children, to have those realisations, but it is all worth it, at that point.

[44:13] Nick: Agreed, and one of the analogies that somebody told me, when I first started cycling, I said, “when does this get easier?” He said, “it doesn't. You just get faster,” and business is the same. Business doesn't get easier. You just get better at it. You just get better at fulfilling those challenges.

[44:28] Dan: Time in the seat. As I was saying earlier, when I was first training for that first ride in Cambodia, I remember talking to Paul Williamson. I said, “what do you do about training stuff?” He says, “don't worry about that, Dan. Just time in the seat, mate. Just keep your bum in the seat. Hours in the seat. You'll get there, in the end,” and that's the same thing with business. It doesn't get easier, but the challenges, they might be the same size, but they get easier to hurdle, and easier to navigate, the more and more that you have to work around them, and there’s a challenge every day. There's something on every day, especially with an ecosystem as big as ours. There's a lot going on every day, and it's all about how you manage them and get through it, but the challenges don't become less, but they do become a lot easier to handle.

[45:12] Nick: Amazing. Mate, look, it's been an absolute pleasure. I appreciate it.

[45:15] Dan: Appreciate you having me on, man. I met your wife a little bit before I met you. Both great people, both superstars with Cub, as far as I'm concerned. So, been a great champion, mate. I'm sure, we'll definitely get to catch up and have a beer or coffee, or whatnot, and continue the conversation, at some point.

[45:30] Nick: And I'll have my eye now on joining you on one of the cycling trips.

[45:34] Dan: Mate, we'd love to. We'll have to get the whole team over there. Make it a family affair, mate, with […].

[45:39] Nick: One of the boys, I’ve got him in the cycling now. So, maybe I can get him there, but yeah, absolutely. I love that sort of thing, and I'd love to continue to just hang out with people like yourself. As the saying says, you become the sum of those that you associate with, and I […] somebody with a heart yours as somebody that I want around my circle, mate. So, I appreciate your time.

[46:00] Dan: We like working with good humans, we like being around good humans, and we like to try and be good humans. That's what I say. So, yeah. Appreciate the kind words.

[46:07] Nick: Mate, have a great day.

[46:08] Dan: Thanks, Nick.

[46:09] Nick: That's a wrap on today's episode with Dan Copsey. We've explored the highs, lows, and everything in between, of building a global business empire. If you found value in this conversation, don't forget to subscribe, leave review, and share it with your network. Join us next time for more inspiring stories and actionable insights from the world of business. Until then, keep striving for greatness. 

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